The Consistency Curse with Ryan Sullivan

James Bishop [00:00:05]:

Dear listeners, we are gathered here today to reflect on a podcast that is no longer with us, Podcast Principles. The show dismantled podcasting barriers, guiding others on their journey by outlining the principles of podcasting. Haunting us day is its creator Ryan Sullivan. Launched in January 2022, only Ten episodes were ever published before the show was left to perish just 3 months later. On this episode, We'll learn what caused podcast principles to be yet another headstone in the podcast graveyard. We'll celebrate the highs, lament the and discuss whether it should be laid to rest forever or be brought back to life. From One Fine Play, this is podcast graveyard. Welcome to this service.

James Bishop [00:01:10]:

I'm your host, James Bishop, and and I've been producing podcasts for years. What I've learned is that one of the hardest things to do is Keep your podcast alive. There's nearly 4,000,000 podcasts available today, but fewer than 8% are alive and kicking. I'm curious to learn more about these lost shows. Why did they start? What led them to stop? And what can we learn from their untimely demise? Who knows? Perhaps we'll even bring some back from the podcast graveyard. Pod Have you ever felt overwhelmed in the vast shadowy web of the creator economy? Like a phantom drifting through countless tools, products, and websites, endlessly seeking out ways to bring your podcast to life. Hours become days in this relentless quest, and time continues to run out. But we found a way of breaking you out of this curse.

James Bishop [00:02:14]:

Deep within our creative lair at OneFine Play, we've crafted a blessed poetry, a treasure trove where thousands of enchanted products and services for creators are gathered waiting to end your eternal search. Engage with fellow creators, comment, upvote your favorite listings, and save the most bewitching finds to your personal pod, and here's the spellbinding twist. The directory will cost you nothing. It's entirely free to use. So, brave souls, break a creative services and products today, all completely free. Let's begin proceedings. Hi, Ryan. Thanks for haunting the show today.

Ryan Sullivan [00:03:04]:

James, very fitting for the season that we're in. Not sure when this episode's going out, but we're approaching Halloween here, and, it it makes a lot of sense, and I love the idea and the concept. So let's see if this, you know, reckons a revival or, or a complete put to rest. We're gonna determine that today.

James Bishop [00:03:20]:

I can't wait to find out and as a fellow podcast professional maybe we can get into a bit of discussion at the end, see how you're feeling after talking it through. Maybe this will be a bit more like therapy than anything else. So tell me, why did you wanna make the podcast in the 1st place?

Ryan Sullivan [00:03:36]:

The idea was I pod That's was the impetus. Like, we know, what to do, and we at least have a framework based on what we've done with clients, pod in the system that we've created to launch podcasts. So we essentially wanted to cur to create a free version of our system with just the highlights and the takeaways and the Actionable stuff, and so that's what we set out to do. We didn't really think about the execution and, like, what it would look like to make that. We knew What the work was gonna be, but we obviously didn't know the work until we got into it. But that was the gist. Create a podcast about podcasting that's actually practical.

James Bishop [00:04:19]:

And what other shows were your inspiration?

Ryan Sullivan [00:04:22]:

All the bad podcasts about podcasting, basically.

James Bishop [00:04:24]:

We won't name those then.

Ryan Sullivan [00:04:26]:

Nah. Nah. We're good.

James Bishop [00:04:28]:

I'll keep them out. So when you started out, what were your expectations and what did you hope to achieve?

Ryan Sullivan [00:04:34]:

I definitely didn't have, like, a downloads number or a follower listener account number or anything that I was going for. Pod wanted to create repurposed content that would be easy to post on LinkedIn. Just, yeah, just wanted to, like, create this podcast pot about breaking things down that seem to be, a little bit ambiguous or, like, the things where you search the how to start a podcast, and there's, like, You know, 2,000,000 results on Google, and we just wanted to make it so you can just kind of watch this podcast and at least have a way to start. So it wasn't like a metrics thing or a followers thing. It was really gonna be for, like, repurposed content, and I guess just to do it and just to break down the podcast principles, like, It was, yeah, it was kind of a multipurpose thing, but it was definitely not for, like, the metrics or anything like that. It was almost to do it, and then to do it for, you know, the market and to

James Bishop [00:05:39]:

It sounds like you kind of wanted to learn by doing, and in making it you might actually learn what you already knew. If that makes sense. Pod Like you've Yeah.

Ryan Sullivan [00:05:48]:

Or well, also the fact that we don't I don't do scripted podcasts, and I've never done one. So this was also a really good And then it actually yeah. It did end up being a pro because then we can go, hey. We launched 1 like this, and we ended up stopping because of x y z. So then these are the things that you're gonna wanna fix if you're gonna do that too. So it was kind of a win even if you fail type of thing.

James Bishop [00:06:17]:

So you made a scripted podcast and then you realized how hard scripted podcasts and thought, yeah, I'm never gonna get into that again. That's not fun.

Ryan Sullivan [00:06:25]:

Not in this capacity. It was me and my partner doing it. He helped a lot of the scripting. I was the, you know, pod Person talking. And yeah. Yeah. Exactly, man. I mean, I didn't no.

Ryan Sullivan [00:06:35]:

I didn't realize what it would be. I've done scripted videos, but one offs and stuff, but I'm not that's not my vibe. Like, it really is not my my thing, now that I now I know that.

James Bishop [00:06:45]:

There are some formats in podcasting that I could not get down with. That are so hard work, and involves so much development that they're just on another level. I my hat. I tip my hat to those people. So, let's get down into some of the details here. Let's first off talk about, you know, the hot topic everyone brings up when they explain why they're finding their podcast hard: time and money. Firstly, how much time do you think you put into this?

Ryan Sullivan [00:07:15]:

Well, let's see. We got 10 episodes. Let's say 2 hours of planning per episode, so 20 hours 60? I'd say, like, 60 to 80 hours for the 10 episodes, if I were to take a kinda rough guess on that.

James Bishop [00:07:38]:

Alright. So 6 to 8 hours an episode, so not a pod joke.

Ryan Sullivan [00:07:42]:

And I was doing all of the audio. Oh, the only thing I didn't do is the show notes. I did everything else myself too, and and the scripting. It was Myself and my partner doing the scripting, and he did the show notes, and then I did everything else.

James Bishop [00:07:55]:

So it's a full day of work per episode, basically. And how much money did you spend on the podcast overall? 0. 0. But we should mention that you own microphones, you have access to recording, you probably have podcast hosting. So you've covered a lot of the costs.

Ryan Sullivan [00:08:09]:

Zero meaning, yes, stuff I already paid for. Yeah. And obviously your time. Yeah. Yeah. The time's the big one.

James Bishop [00:08:15]:

What would you say, even if the podcast professional, was the biggest obstacle you faced when making this show?

Ryan Sullivan [00:08:21]:

Definitely plant formatting and trying to figure out what the pod How is the best way to explain a podcast launch on a podcast, you know, that's 5 to 10 minutes long? How do you take a pot full podcast launch And dwindle it down to a 15 episode series where the episodes aren't longer than 6 to 8 minutes each. So that was definitely the most difficult part of literally, like, taking a system we already built and then trying to form a podcast around it. And, it's kinda similar to what we do in general, So we had an upper hand, and it was in terms of, like, us versus the general public doing this, but it was still difficult. But I would say, like, scratched our head the most on, you know, the actual, like, formatting each episode, what to include, what to not include, how to explain things that are only pod Auditory, how to explain things that are only visual. It was really those logistics that ended up being, like, pretty difficult.

James Bishop [00:09:14]:

But that's one of the really tricky Isn't it? It's like working out what a good format is to tell a story. So you've got, like, an idea or a topic or a theme or a, you know, something you wanna do and pod The first way you think of telling that story might not necessarily be the right way, you know? Just A asking B questions, your standard interview format, might not necessarily be the most imaginative style or structure for a show and it's really coming up with that format at the beginning that can often be one of the trickiest parts.

Ryan Sullivan [00:09:44]:

Yeah. Definitely. When you have, like, 4 say you have, like, 4 topics in 1 episode, you know, breaking them down. So, like, yeah, you're scripting it, but you don't want it to sound scripted. So but then there's, like, kind of, you know, complex information that you almost have to read off of, but you can't be looking at it, and there's no teleprompter, and yeah. I mean, it's like, It's not just the formatting, but, like, it all ties in. Like, the formatting, the execution, the output, like, it's all kind of 1 ends up being one thing. Like everything, affects everything else, you know.

James Bishop [00:10:20]:

And then you also end up in that situation which I think they find in true crime podcasts a lot which is You really need the person to listen in order, but what happens if they find you episode 4 and you don't wanna lose them altogether and they might not go back to episode 1, but then you need to give them some context. Pod But then how do you bring the context in? And, you know, it again, not the easiest thing, but also, You know, the aim here is not to just get someone to listen to 1 episode but get to listen to them all. So or more than 1 at least. So then it's a case of what's the art Or what are the hooks gonna be to get them to go and listen to other episodes? You can't just pretend they don't exist.

Ryan Sullivan [00:10:55]:

Yeah. You gotta allude. Yeah. For sure. And that's what we did. You know, we would allude to, pot Marketing might be episode 11, but guessing is pretty fundamental to marketing maybe. So, yeah, there were we did have ways to tie the episodes together, which I think worked pot Pretty well. People did end up end up bingeing them for sure just, like, from what I could roughly tell on YouTube, because we did video and audio versions, which was also really good.

Ryan Sullivan [00:11:28]:

At the end of the day too, it's the episodes are still living there in the YouTube channel. They're a pretty good archive, and they're a pretty good representation, of, like, kind of our system. Pod So it's it wasn't, there are a lot of, like, for sure net positives, but, yeah, I mean, it's difficult.

James Bishop [00:11:44]:

Any embarrassing or cringe worthy moments in making it that you can share?

Ryan Sullivan [00:11:50]:

The only one is, like, we spent, like, 5 hours on 1, and then we just ditched the entire thing. Like, we spent a whole half day recording and making it and we just like did wrote and did a whole entire new episode the next day so we wasted like 2 days.

James Bishop [00:12:02]:

Pod I love you sharing that because it's embarrassing to you, but so valuable to other people. I, I'm always amazed at what someone is willing to put out just in the desperation of having committed to putting it out even if it's not worth it. We often. Pod Well, it's the same with guests. We, as a production company, I've worked on shows where you do a research call with a guest and then you don't put them on show when you have to find a reason that you don't want them and we've recorded episodes that we don't use. MrBeast, the YouTuber, talks about spending pot Literally millions of bucks on videos that he then doesn't post. He's like if it's not exactly good enough it's not going out. Pod So, embarrassing to you, but I appreciate you sharing because I think there's someone listening to this who will Think about the next piece of content they make and go, yeah, that's not up to scratch.

James Bishop [00:12:49]:

I'm not gonna put it out. If it's not too emotional, why did your podcast die?

Ryan Sullivan [00:12:54]:

Pod Yeah. So, you know, this is what happened. Right? So February, we're doing well. You know? We're doing alright. February of this year, pod Podcast is rolling. LinkedIn's rolling. We got content rolling. We got clients coming in.

Ryan Sullivan [00:13:06]:

Just landed a 12 episode contract. Cool. March comes around. What's going on? Things are slowing down a little bit. I'm realizing our, like, recurring revenue is, like, a not at a good place. And so from kind of March to, like really from, like, February, March, April, and May, I was, like, ignoring a lot of, like, the business side, and I was really focusing on this content, but I didn't Ignore the business side because I was focusing on the content. It was just 2 things that were happening, and I kinda, like, woke up, like, a couple months later and was like, oh, wait. Like, I need to, like, build this business.

Ryan Sullivan [00:13:47]:

So that's, you know, really kind of what happened. We just ton of business in this moment, and if we we we also realized that the we let the business a Take it over at the same time because we would just we would be ahead, and then we would start being week by week, And then it would be literally, like, Sunday night when I'm doing the edit. Right? And so it started to slip away from us, and at the same time, it wasn't like the business was thriving, pot That was the, you know, ultimate reason in terms of, like, we needed to refocus. We it was too much time, and it wasn't doing not like this was something that was bringing in x amount of leads per week or anything. It would have later if we would've just stuck with it, but in the moment we couldn't, didn't make sense. It made more sense to folks on the business.

James Bishop [00:14:52]:

Was there an exact moment that you could remember that you knew it was over, that you knew you had to say, pot I can't keep doing this for now.

Ryan Sullivan [00:14:59]:

When we said, we'll just do this last episode and then be done with it, and then I never even edited that Last episode, like it's just there in raw form. That's when it was like the reality set in of like, I'm not even doing this.

James Bishop [00:15:18]:

Yep. Quick interruption from today's service to remind you that you're listening to Podcast Graveyard from One Fine Play with me, your host, James Bishop. Pod A quick break from today's proceedings to bring you a message from the heavens. Making content can sometimes feel like an epic battle against the forces of darkness, sapping you of your motivation. But I have something that can increase your vitality, a source of energy like no other. I present to you, Ayla, the world's 1st chemical free pre workout alternative made from the power of plants for long term results and a healthier you. Ayla believes in the harmony of being active and well. With Ayla, you'll feel like you've harnessed a pod very essence of the night, giving you the strength to boost your workouts.

James Bishop [00:16:07]:

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Ryan Sullivan [00:16:53]:

Just not batching the entire thing. That's how it should've went. Everything should've been completely done the whole entire season before we click pod What do you mean by that? Just finish the entire season, so 15 episodes

James Bishop [00:17:05]:

Okay.

Ryan Sullivan [00:17:06]:

Done, promotional material, show notes, blog post, Everything done and written, then click publish for episode 1, and just schedule the entire thing out over the course of 15 weeks or whatever.

James Bishop [00:17:17]:

That is an incredible bit of learning that I really hope people listening pod take on board. And I can completely relate to it. One of my hard rules when running a production company as a producer was nothing is going out till the entire thing is finished. Posh because I like a stress free life and getting myself in a position where it's gotta get turned around in 8 hours or 3 hours or I need it tomorrow will pod That never has happened because I've I mean, I've cost us money and time and probably lost work and all sorts of things, but hard rule. Pod you finish it, you make all the promotional stuff, you, you know, release it in the last in the right way. It makes it much harder for pod always on content if you're making something that's 50 episodes a year, but in that case we're always we never get to a position where there's fewer than 10 episodes ready to go.

Ryan Sullivan [00:18:09]:

Yeah. That's how I would if you I always say if you could be a 100 episodes ahead, do it. If you got the time and the money and the bandwidth, do it. It's gonna it's It would be incredible. Now you wouldn't have the ability to adapt, you know, to the to the current landscape of anything, but if it's

James Bishop [00:18:28]:

worst piece of podcasting advice you've ever got is?

Ryan Sullivan [00:18:31]:

Pod The fact that consistency will save you above all. Because it won't. If anybody says that you need to podcasting success is dependent on x, It's definitely that definitely means it's not. Right? Like, it has to be everything. A guest isn't gonna save you, you know, consistency isn't gonna save you, content isn't gonna save you, your Instagram's not gonna save you, your TikTok's not gonna save you, like, nothing's gonna save you, You know, and so I truly believe that consistency is one of the pillars. Like, I don't think you can do much without it, But I also don't think that any one thing is gonna save you. And I was asked on a podcast the other day, what's the work what's the piece of if just so I could finish this thought. What's the marketing, strategy that you fundamentally disagree with? My answer was nothing.

Ryan Sullivan [00:19:15]:

I don't disagree with anything that works. Pod I when it comes to podcasting, I don't deny anything that works. My thing is more like these end all be all statements of this is the ultimate thing or this is the thing that's pod save you like or this is the thing. Just because we teach organic content and we grow podcasts that way doesn't mean that these other things don't work, you know?

James Bishop [00:19:45]:

This is so true. Podcasting And consistency always get tied together. Like, you've gotta be consistent. You've gotta post every Sunday. It's nonsense. I have too many examples of how this isn't true. By consistency, we mean volume and all the time. We don't mean Wednesday at 3 PM without fail if you, you know, on pain of death.

James Bishop [00:20:04]:

Like, on LinkedIn, Just post when you're passionate and you've got a great idea. Just do it a lot. Don't worry about like everyday at 10:17 is the optimum time to post. Like, just Post if you've got something to say and don't post if you haven't. On TikTok, post 3, 4 times a day but it doesn't matter. That's consistency because you're doing it a lot. But if you don't wanna post for 2 weeks, So what? Just before we started this call, where you and I were talking about the YouTuber CaseyNeistat hasn't posted for 2 years. Pod Just starts now randomly posting whenever it feels like growing 300 subscribers in 300,000 subscribers in a week.

James Bishop [00:20:40]:

Mister Beast says, I'm only gonna post when I've got a great video. You can tweet whenever you want. Colin and Samir, my favorite podcast, it's about the creator economy. They post every couple of days, 3 days, 4 days, 5 days, but it's sporadic. Different shows, different, like, topics all within the same channel On random days, there's no real logic to it. Doesn't matter, still listen to every episode. Because that freedom is what makes better content. Pod- So, I'm with you on this consistency thing.

James Bishop [00:21:10]:

So, on the other side of that coin What is the best piece of advice you've had or what advice would you give to someone starting out? You've been on this podcast, Dean Jen, you've started a show, Frustratingly, it's now in the podcast graveyard. What's the best piece of advice you could pass on to the next person?

Ryan Sullivan [00:21:31]:

Lean into you. So figure out your personality over everything, because a At one point or another, you're gonna have to be yourself, and you're gonna have to do it unapologetically, and it's actually gonna be everything. The whole thing is gonna just be you, and it's super cliche. I do get this. Right? But my thing is, like, don't try to adapt You really gotta figure out yourself. Our most successful shows are people who may have a political, bend. Right? They leaned into it. They didn't shy away from it because some people are gonna get sad.

Ryan Sullivan [00:22:27]:

So that's really my, you know, pod Best piece of advice, I think, is just don't try to be somebody else. Like, if you wanna emulate what works, great. But you gotta figure out you're you. You're gotta be you at the end of the day, and if you're putting on some kinda persona to be on this podcast, man, it's not gonna last.

James Bishop [00:22:44]:

If your podcast had a headstone, what would you put on it?

Ryan Sullivan [00:22:48]:

Oh. I would probably like the power of the podcast, and then you would have to infer from that whatever you wanna infer.

James Bishop [00:22:54]:

I love that. I like the open ended, pod. Take from it what you want. So look, we're coming to the time of the show where we're looking at making a judgment. Should this show be resurrected? Should it stay dead? Pod. And you know, I feel like this might sound a little bit tough, but I'm gonna be honest. I feel like this is a show that should pot Probably go to the heavenly afterlife. Because I feel like this is something you did when you started out, you've learned a lot, you've evolved, you've developed, you've got new skills, You've got new understandings, and my take on this show is that it's not really a podcast, it's more like an audio learning podcast.

James Bishop [00:23:33]:

It feels like what you were trying to make was a one off piece of, like, audio online learning to educate, like a resource, Not so much the mechanics of what's gonna make a killer podcast, which I know, knowing you, you have the capability to do. So, whether it seems harsh or not, maybe it's unfair, but for me, I feel like this is one that should go to the afterlife because I know that inside you there is a wealth of creative wisdom and you've got the talent to bring something pod More compelling to the world in podcast format, and what you had made here with Podcast Principles you should still do, but you should manifest it in an audio experience, but not give it the strap of podcast. Is that fair?

Ryan Sullivan [00:24:21]:

That is where we're looking to take it, and if you take If I take my own advice, James, that wasn't me at my best. That wasn't me go really being me. This is more me, And probably a little bit like this type of thing, but, you know, in whatever version we create, but more so Open so I can have the rants, so I can have the opinions, so I can have those points that just come out 13 minutes in That you didn't expect to and you didn't put down on paper. Right? That's the that's what I have to do. And so what we are doing, the plan, is myself and my partner, He's gonna be able to throw me the ball and I'm gonna try to dunk it, and it not all of them are gonna hit, but we're gonna have a more open, pod More conversational, more opinionated, less how to, more, you know, lean into ourselves and And saying things about the market and podcasting that not everybody might agree with. Sometimes going a little bit more high level, a personalities and it's just gonna feel much better that way. So, yes, we'll put we'll kill that version off, we'll throw it we'll we'll allow it to rise above you know, we can we can pray to it, we can respect it, we can walk past a grave and shed a tear, pod But this version is is no longer and the new version will, be batched ahead of time. Will be batched.

James Bishop [00:26:07]:

Pod My man, I don't think you've left me much else to say. You've taken your best piece of advice and put yourself in the middle. You've taken your biggest learning which is to batch for the future. You are channeling it around you. You're an awesome guy, you are an inspiration to me about what's possible in podcasting and pod I love that you have taken the best bits of this and you're channeling it in a new creative project. Thanks. So, Thank you so much for joining me, I really appreciate it. Just before we go, in the words of Shaun Evans, Can you tell the world what you've got going on in your life?

Ryan Sullivan [00:26:48]:

I love it. I love how he does that, man. Yeah. So, you know, I have a podcast, it's called Bobcast. Like I said, it is somewhat localized, pod Meaning the the interviews are in person, but there are a ton of takeaways, you know, that the what we talk about on the podcast isn't completely localized. You can check that out. I interview outliers who are breaking the mold regardless of the status quo and pursuing their dreams in one way or another. So that's every single guest fits that mold.

Ryan Sullivan [00:27:11]:

There's also some solo episodes in there, that I like to go off on my own tangents. And then, yeah, man, we help people launch podcasts similar to what you do. We're pod Really heavy on the consulting side and helping current podcasters. So if you have 1 and you're a little bit frustrated about where it's at, maybe we can help you out with That's podcast principles.com, and connect with me on LinkedIn, Ryan r Sullivan.

James Bishop [00:27:31]:

My man, thank you so much.

Ryan Sullivan [00:27:32]:

Appreciate you, bro. This was great.

James Bishop [00:27:38]:

An emotional farewell I think you'll agree. May Ryan's podcast rest in peace. There are some powerful takeaways from today's service that we can all learn from. Number 1, I think one of the great lessons is something Ryan articulated beautifully and that's having the strength to not post content if it's not right. It's so easy to get lost in the sunk cost fallacy of making content. We've all been there. You spend time and resource investing in something that shouldn't be going live in the 1st place. It's not failure, it's natural to have a learning curve and the punch line is everybody involved will be grateful for your strength in saying no.

James Bishop [00:28:14]:

That's you, the guest and your audience. Just take the hit MoveOn. The 2nd lesson, record in batch. Batch recording is great for efficiency and focus. It allows you to amass a backlog of episodes so that you never run out of content to publish. As Ryan points out, regularity in content publishing is vital for retaining your audience's trust otherwise they'll just go and look for something else. The last lesson centers on embracing your character as a host. Often there's a preconceived notion of what a host should be leading to imitation.

James Bishop [00:28:50]:

It's essential to infuse your personality into the show as this is what Keeps People Returning. Let your audience get to know you, share details about who you are, your likes and dislikes and things that inspire you maybe even frustrate you. A distinctive style and character provides your listeners with something to connect to. Remember, you are the niche. Last time We were haunted by John Welsh, host of the podcast humans of LinkedIn. We delved into the show's concept. His realizations when the show was ending and hear with hindsight what he would have done differently as its creator. At our next service, I speak to Carl Robinson from The VoiceTech podcast.

James Bishop [00:29:30]:

Podcast. Karl outlines what his Achilles heel was with production, how he generated revenue, and how many listeners he continues to get to the podcast today. Karl also predict whether he thinks the show will be resurrected. It's a candid conversation with lots of valuable learnings so I really hope you can attend the service. Episode to someone you think will find it valuable. And if you or someone you know has a podcast that's been laid to rest and would like to give it a proper send off. We'd love to have you on. Please email us at podcast graveyard at apodfineplay.com.

James Bishop [00:30:12]:

A quick thank you to those who have helped make today's service possible. Kasar Faroozia was the producer and editor. Conor Foley was our assistant producer and Selena Christofides put together the visuals. Special thanks go to Andrew Davey for the inspiration. In parting, let us not dwell on the darkness of this moment but instead let us focus on the light that podcast principles brought into our lives. Its memory will forever be a guiding star leading us through the night. I'm James Bishop and this is Podcast Graveyard.