The Fine Line Between Comedy and Tragedy with Jim Salveson

James Bishop [00:00:05]:

Dear listeners, we are gathered here today to reflect on a podcast that is no longer with us. On the left side. It was described as scribed as the funny football podcast that takes a sideways look at the very best stories from the beautiful game. Haunting us today is its host, Jim Salvason. Launched in October 2015, 2 96 episodes were published in total before the show was left to perish in November 2020. On this episode, We'll learn what caused On the Left Side to be yet another headstone in the podcast graveyard. We'll celebrate the highs, lament the lows, and discuss whether it should lay to rest forever or be brought back to life. From One Fine Play, this is Podcast Graveyard.

James Bishop [00:01:08]:

Welcome to this service. I'm your host, James Bishop, and and I've been producing podcasts for years. What I've learned is that one of the hardest things to do is Keep Your Podcast Alive. There's nearly 4,000,000 podcasts available today, but fewer than 8% are alive and kicking. I'm curious to learn more about these lost shows. Why did they start? What led them to stop? And what can we learn from their untimely demise? Who knows? Perhaps, we'll even bring some back from the podcast graveyard. Let's begin proceedings. Hi, Jim.

James Bishop [00:01:51]:

Thanks for haunting the show today.

Jim Salveson [00:01:52]:

No worries. Thank you for having me, James.

James Bishop [00:01:54]:

So tell me, what is On the Left Side all about and why did you want to make the podcast?

Jim Salveson [00:02:00]:

On the Left Side, as You described it earlier is well, well, it was a funny football show. I was really resistant to use the word funny when we started it because it felt like a real kind of Bold thing to claim. It's like you don't wanna be the person in the pub that goes, I am. I'm the wacky one. I'm the funny one. And so I always held off that a little bit. But, Eventually, we settled on that was kind of the ambition. We wanted to do something that was ultimately, it was kind of 15 minutes of original Comedy every week that kinda looked at the world of football and poked fun at it at the same time.

Jim Salveson [00:02:34]:

It felt like just a A really rich vein of content that we could tap into because there are plenty of podcasts and Other media that take football so ridiculously seriously and didn't even acknowledge the ridiculousness that surrounds it. So we wanted to do something that really kind of held it up to the light and went, look, this is bonkers. This is stupid, and create a podcast that was Around that. Why I wanted to do it? Well, it was I mean, I should say it was oct October 2015 we launched it, and I'd just been made redundant from my job. I wanted to do something that continued to allow me to be creative. And I guess it's kinda like It's like cigarettes. You can't just like stop the next day if you've been smoking for 15 years. It's probably foolhardy to stop the next day.

Jim Salveson [00:03:25]:

So in the same way as kinda making audio content, I needed to wean myself on that. I didn't wanna give myself any sudden shocks. So I kinda weaned myself off the radio gig by doing a bit of podcasting and kind of, Still flexing the same muscles, but I'd also identified the or thought I'd identified like a trend towards podcasts getting shorter. It was in a world where the likes of Joe Rogan were stealing the headlines of podcasting with his 2 and a half hour monologues. And it was like, well, actually, do Do people want something a little bit shorter? Do people want something a little bit bite sized? So from that side of things, it was a bit of an experiment to go. Well, let's do something really short, really snappy, like I say, 10, 15 minutes every single week that summed up everything that happened in the world of football that week and gave something that people could just snack on between the rest of their podcast diet.

James Bishop [00:04:11]:

And I guess that leads me to wonder what you were trying to achieve when you started out with this podcast, if that was even a thing, or was it more just a recovery from radio that I still need to be making something.

Jim Salveson [00:04:24]:

I think that was part of it. I definitely wanted to still be doing something. But, also, I think I wanted the same things that most people go into when they launch a podcast. And I I wanted huge success, and I wanted loads of money.

James Bishop [00:04:38]:

You wanted that Spotify 3 Super Deal.

Jim Salveson [00:04:41]:

Yeah. Yeah. I I yeah. I wanted a big deal. I wanted huge advertisers. I wanted massive audiences, and I realized exactly how Naive and foolish that was now. But I think that was definitely one of the objectives to doing it was I mean, I just lost my job. I've just been very redundant.

Jim Salveson [00:04:57]:

The first thing that goes through your head when you're very redundant is, how am I gonna feed my family? How am I gonna pay my mortgage? And you try different things to get to that point. And this was one of the things that I wanted to try. And I think I clocked fairly early on in the life of Podcast that that wasn't gonna be a realistic game. When you got 10 listeners, it's unlikely you're gonna land that Spotify deal or that massive sponsorship. But I think it also developed into something more. And I think pretty quickly, I got something more from it than necessarily Big audiences or or big cash values. I mean, I don't think I ever stopped necessarily chasing that. And I don't think there was ever a point in the podcast where I went, don't wanna grow the audience anymore.

Jim Salveson [00:05:37]:

I don't wanna get more listeners, but I definitely think it became less of a priority as it progressed in life.

James Bishop [00:05:42]:

How much time do you think you put into this podcast? And let's talk about it on a per episode basis. As someone who made 2 96 episodes, You must have had a bit of a journey when it comes to time commitment.

Jim Salveson [00:05:57]:

Yeah. I mean, So it was made over 5 years. If you take out sleep, I reckon probably 4 years solid of time went into the creation of this podcast. It was a It was a beast to create. And I I should point out that I didn't make this podcast alone either. I enlisted the help of a a friend of mine who I'd worked with For a long known for a long time, met a student radio, a guy called Ant McGinley, who's an excellent audio producer and brought him in to help me with this. And I think, Again, part of my motivation for doing this was I'd spent a decade up to this point as a breakfast show producer. The last 10 years of my life had been spent getting up, working with a presenter, and kind of like and and there's always an element of of a producer of trying to kind of please a presenter and trying to kind of do what Say to a certain extent, but also you're kinda negotiating with them to do what the management want.

Jim Salveson [00:06:49]:

And there's that they're they're basically you're you're you're a peacekeeper and you're a, They, you're you're quite a lot of the time doing other people's wishes. And I think this Felt like my opportunity now. I reflect on it to kind of be on the other side of that fence and kind of be the person who was The creative driving force behind it, but could work with someone else to do the shit I'd been doing for the last decade. And And my friend and colleague was, happy to kinda step into that role. So whilst I did the kind of the the the glamorous stuff of Presenting the podcast and I wrote the majority of the content. Ant's job was to make it sound beautiful. Because the other thing we wanted to do with this podcast was To kind of bring again some of those radio sensibilities into it and make something that sounded like a real strong production with Music, and sound effects, and soundscapes, and sketches, and all this stuff that kind of flowed through it.

James Bishop [00:07:54]:

All that stuff that really adds time to getting it out the door.

Jim Salveson [00:07:58]:

Completely. And I didn't do any of that. So that was very much like Antsbag was I'd given them I'd given the audio, the the kind of audio recording, my Driveox and go, There it is. Go and make some magic with it. And 50% of his time was taking my horrible kinda sinus noises out of the audio, and 50% was making these These beautiful soundscapes that he he went and created. But from my point of view, in terms of the kind of writing element of it, that was a real kind of of fire in terms of, actually, how long does it take to write, as you say, early early days, 6 minutes, always under 15 minutes of original material that has that benchmark of going, this is funny. And that that's quite a high thing to set yourself. It's not like This is witty or this is banter.

Jim Salveson [00:08:43]:

It's like, this is funny, which is a is a difficult thing to do. I'm not I'm not not a comedian. I've written some funny radio stuff or some amusing radio stuff. So kinda setting myself that challenge was really difficult. And it wasn't just the case of sitting down and writing it. It was also, Where does this content come from? Where do I find this stuff?

James Bishop [00:09:04]:

All the research and development piece.

Jim Salveson [00:09:06]:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're just Sitting down and trolling websites and going, oh, that was funny. I found this thing in the South American League where they interviewed a dog After a football game, which is what was one of the actual stories we covered by the way. That that's really great. I'm gonna use that in this week's episode, But that's one of a 100 different stories that are happening in football that week. So how do you find that and how do you identify it? And it was probably realistically, it was a 7 day a week job. I spent at least an hour on it every day in terms of researching, and then I'd spend a day and it would probably be 4 hours writing an episode.

Jim Salveson [00:09:43]:

Certainly, in the early days, that's how long it took. I become became much more efficient with that as Time went on, but certainly in those kind of early stages, it was a real labor of love.

James Bishop [00:09:52]:

So overall, what do you think you were spending an episode personally? A day an episode?

Jim Salveson [00:09:58]:

Yeah. Probably probably not far off that. Probably 12 hours for an episode, certainly in the in the early days. Split throughout a week, so it didn't feel like that. But, yeah, much to my wife's annoyance, she was like, oh, shouldn't you really be looking for a new job? It's like, no, but I've gotta make this This podcast with 50 listeners. I this is my this is just as important. It's, yeah. It was a it was a a lot of time in the in the early stages.

James Bishop [00:10:21]:

I was looking back the other day at some YouTube videos I made around, actually, 2015 time, and my wife was saying, These are great. When did you do these? And I was like, Oh, I did those when I didn't have any work, and I could entertain myself all day with making a video. What about money? How much Money do you think you put into this over the years? And I guess that's going to be interesting to hear from a perspective of both you and Your partner, and I guess there's a cost of time and equipment and I guess all sorts of different stuff, but also income as well, because I guess after 296 episodes. There was some income somewhere.

Jim Salveson [00:10:59]:

I reckon over that period of time, Financially, we probably made about 15 quid, if that. But at the same time, we never really courted the financial side of it. I think we did Some, some kind of direct sales at some point with a I can't remember who it was. I think it was some kind of betting, score prediction game, but we we never had any ability to track how many people used our code. We took their word from it and got very little in return. But that that was never really the objective. If I don't think for for well, actually, I say it wasn't the objective. For a podcast that set out to make money, we never actually put any effort into trying to make any money, Which is probably one of the reasons we never actually managed to do that in the 1st place.

Jim Salveson [00:11:43]:

In terms of kind of like time that we put in and the costs behind that, I mean, I've I've told you how many hours it took Put in the costs, it would be a ridiculous amount of investment. And in terms of how we spent money and What actually came out of our wallets to fund the show, it was relatively little, actually. We got a designer Do our kind of logo and podcast cover art in the very early days. We used something like Fiverr to create that. It wasn't a Fiverr. It was more than that, but I forget exactly much it was. I think it was £100 or something like that. We wanted the the show to have the right feel to it, and we even did stuff like we wanted the Cover art to represent it was a comedy show and apparently yellow is the color of comedy, so that's kinda what we used.

Jim Salveson [00:12:28]:

And so we did some proper research and development in in that side. But again, it was Time or the money that went into that kit. Obviously, there's the standard price of a Blue Yeti microphone, which everyone has to Do before they create their own podcast. And and that was kind of it. Again, I'd come from a radio background, so I had a lot of this kit already. I had kind of the audio stuff going on, and I knew what I was doing in that space. So in terms of hard costs, there probably wasn't A great deal of outlay. There certainly was a lot more that, more went out than came in, but it it didn't it it well, it wasn't Making me bankrupt.

Jim Salveson [00:13:03]:

We all still did a little bit of, marketing spend actually as well in terms of kind of putting paid marketing behind social media videos. But I what I now look at now, I look at these things on a kind of bigger scale with my current job, realize that the money we were putting into that, which is The tenor here and a tenor there was never gonna translate into anything meaningful, but that's kind of what it felt like we were required at the time.

James Bishop [00:13:27]:

The show ran for five and a bit years, and you made 290 something episodes, which by my maths means you put out in excess of 1 episode a week, because that would be 260 something, and you've done 290 something. So, Assuming that you were completely consistent with a weekly publishing schedule for 5 years straight, that still means you're putting up more than 1 episode a week, which is Quite frankly, phenomenal. What was the biggest obstacle you faced when trying to make the podcast?

Jim Salveson [00:14:03]:

Time was the was the biggest one. Actually, finding the time and the space to, kind of, go through the production process. Because although we got more efficient with it, There was still an issue with identifying content, writing content. And that that kind of writing, editing, Rewriting side of it was hugely time consuming, but needed to be at a certain level For me to be happy with the product we were creating. I think that one of the saving things, one of the things that enabled this podcast to go on for so long and one of the things I got out of it more than anything else Well, as I gone from this idea of being a producer to kind of a a presenter slash scriptwriter, in the early days of the podcast, I was Hugely anal about every single element of it from a production point of view. I had a complete lack of trust on letting other people do things and contribute to things, and we would go back with endless edit notes to Ant, my I don't know why he's still my friend Because this this should have broken in, but

James Bishop [00:15:05]:

The audio nerd inside you got the better of you.

Jim Salveson [00:15:08]:

Yeah. And it was that stuff. It was things like, oh, I think we need half a second more silence between that fart sound effect and the music bed coming in Or whatever it was. And it's stuff that would that would make no difference to anyone other than me. And even though it did make a difference, it was purely my opinion, and it shouldn't Shouldn't it really matter because someone else's opinion's just as valuable as as mine. And yeah. Yeah. So that that was time.

Jim Salveson [00:15:31]:

And he and he and What I in a ridiculous fashion, what we do was we'd reduce the the time it took, but then fill that extra space with other things that would then fill that time to try something else. And this is something I've always done as a as a creative person. I've always liked to push things and try new ideas and And I will fill spare time with other projects. It's just kind of how my brain works. So when we got the the editing down and we got it more Succinct in terms of like the the the workflow between research, writing, creation. We went, oh, well, That's taken us less time. Let's do 2 episodes a week. Or during, like, big football tournaments, there were occasions where we did daily episodes Over the course of a World Cup, which was an insane thing to try.

Jim Salveson [00:16:19]:

And then we tried to do animated videos for highlights clips. Instead of just doing audiograms, it was like, Well, actually, do you know what? I reckon I can do a bit of basic animation using PowerPoint or something like that. So that would fill the time. And so It became a bit of a behemoth really. And just having that space and having that the time to do it was probably was was definitely the biggest But we always overcame it. And I think that was credit to myself and Ant in terms of our dedication to it that we'd have periods of time where one of us would be away on holiday, But we'd find a creative way to then do that. And we the the show never stopped. Like, if I was away, we ended up getting, Dalton, Adebayo from 5 live did an episode for us because aunt had met him at a radio event and kinda gone, how about you voice this? So while I was off, he voiced it.

Jim Salveson [00:17:11]:

Or I'd be on the beach on holiday with my family. I'd be writing on my iPad going, well, I'll just I'll just script it, and then you can voice it. And yeah. So that kind of relentless Time restraint never really went away and that was ultimately probably why it passed away.

James Bishop [00:17:26]:

Over those years of making the show and near on 300 episodes. You must have some embarrassing or cringeworthy stories of things that happened. Any absolute clangers you can share?

Jim Salveson [00:17:40]:

I can't remember how it came about, but we ended up with TalkSPORT asking us to produce a show for them, like a A review of the year in the style of Onda's left side that was due to go out over their over their Christmas scheduling. And we put Hours and blood and sweat and tears into this episode. And we're obviously very proud that we were kinda making the leap from podcasting to What was at the time the world's biggest sport radio station? It felt like a really big thing. And obviously, when you're proud of something, you tell a lot of people. You Spread the word. And our grandmothers, mothers, friends, families, dogs, whoever would pay attention to us knew this was happening. And then the big day came and it was due to go out on air, and it was at some horrific time anyway. It was like 1 o'clock in the morning on a Saturday or something like that.

Jim Salveson [00:18:31]:

And then it never happened. It never went out because the darts that was happening just before it overrun. I didn't even know darts could go into extra Extra time. I don't know I don't know how that happens, but it went into extra time. The schedule changed, and the show got canned. So the the thing that we are incredibly proud of and to be telling Everyone about our huge success and how this was the start of something massive for us, never saw the light of day, which I guess was a a little bit embarrassing, but more, More cripplingly disappointing than that, I guess.

James Bishop [00:19:01]:

That is the harsh reality of commercial scheduling and commercial programming. A cut with no sense of emotion or feeling for the person who, like you say, putting blood and love to get it there.

Jim Salveson [00:19:19]:

Yep.

James Bishop [00:19:24]:

Quick interruption from today's service to remind you that you're listening to Podcast Graveyard from One Fine Play with me, your host, James Bishop. Coming up, we get into the perils of making a podcast about the industry you work in and we reveal whether the podcast should be brought back from the dead or forever laid to rest. But first, I want to find out about some of Jim's successes. Let's hear what he has to say.

Jim Salveson [00:19:48]:

I mean, in terms of the show itself, The the fact that we did it as you as you just illustrated, the amount of episodes we put out over 5 years without that break was A success in itself and the amount of commitment and creative thinking that went into kind of continually doing that, I think is a huge success In itself, I think we experienced a lot of credibility we got from making the podcast as well in terms of kind of within the industry, within small pockets of the industry. So like I say, we were approached by TalkSport to do this episode, which is a huge feather in the cap. One of the other things we we were nominated for a, I forget which award it was. It It might be I think it was an Arkeva radio award for best sports program. And I remember sitting in the Leeds O2 Arena or whatever it's called, where they were hosting it that year. And they put the nominations up on the board, and it was like 5 live sports coverage of the World Cup, Fighting Talk. And it was these these incredible names were up on the screen, and it said, on the left side, A funny football show, which was me and my mate doing it in our bedroom. And it was like the the the the the disparity of those things, but being on a level playing field, That was a kind of real success and a real moment of pride.

Jim Salveson [00:21:05]:

But I think ultimately, the biggest thing that we kinda took away from it, the biggest success was The development for myself, Anther. I think Ant will probably say the same things. The development of our own skills and doing things that we'd never done before. I'd never written comedy before. And ultimately, I was sitting down every week and I was writing 15 minutes of original comedy, Which was a bonkers thing to do, but it re it's kind of like it's that muscle memory thing. It's that 10000 hours and The the the kind of the the practice and the perfection of doing that. And I'm a I'm a much stronger writer, and I'm a much quicker writer now Than I ever would have been had I not done On The Left Side. And I think Ant will probably say the same in terms of his production skills.

James Bishop [00:21:47]:

It's a very humble answer to a question, what were your successes. I really appreciate the way that you've tackled the question by sharing the skills that you learnt, and the way that you've developed as a person. Couple of name drops, but my back isn't sore from picking up all the names that I thought were about to drop. So I do really Take from what you're saying. And I think it's something that, you know, so many people miss. We talked at the top of the show about what you were hoping to achieve, and you were saying, you know, the 2015 equivalent of a Spotify exclusive deal, as it would be now, and the fame and fortune. But, actually, in reality, the biggest successes were Personal Growth, Personal Development, which is something, as a production company producer, I have come to learn is the journey that you go on with the host is often far more profound for them than they expect. Lots of people have said, James, I didn't realise that it was going to be part podcast production, part therapy, but that is kind of how it worked.

James Bishop [00:22:43]:

Onto more difficult and emotional topics. Why did the podcast die?

Jim Salveson [00:22:48]:

I think there's 2 reasons why it died. 1 was the aforementioned amount of time. The other challenge I had, which was probably ultimately the reason that I Decided to stop doing it or we decided to stop doing it, I should say, is that I I I became became, director of sport at Voiceworks. And a lot of my Job involved talking with football clubs about their audio strategies or other sporting bodies as well about their audio strategies and how to deliver that. And I suddenly became very aware and very nervous of the fact that I could be one day Having a real go at Tottenham for the amount of money they'd spent on their football stadium and the fact they decided to include a room in their football Stadium just for cheese and all and all this kind of stuff. I'd I'd be taking the piss out of them on a Monday. And then on a Wednesday, I'd be walking into their Communications office and having a chat with the people in the club. And it felt like there was not enough separation there between The gym that was hosting this podcast which was a satirical piss takey look at the world of football and then having serious conversations with the people that I was Potentially taking the piss out of a couple of hours before.

Jim Salveson [00:24:03]:

And so from a professional point of view, it felt that was the time to kinda step back.

James Bishop [00:24:07]:

And I think that's something to really think about when designing a podcast and coming up with a concept is contemplating the industry, the footprint, and the impact that you shot your show might have on the bigger picture of your life, not just the short term wins. And I

Jim Salveson [00:24:25]:

think we'll see something else unravel from this as well as podcasting matures and it kind of, like, disappears into the rear view mirror. We're in a situation now where People's social media profiles can have an impact on jobs they apply for in the future. And ultimately, podcasting It's part of your social branding. It's part of your personal branding as an individual. And if you say something off color in a podcast, 10 years down the line, that could easily be uncovered and could be a reflection on yourself whether you go into the world's business or Politics or whatever it is, it's a record of you as a human at a certain point in time. And that's something that needs to be considered properly. And like you said earlier, We we've just come out of this pod boom, this post pandemic pod boom where everyone was making their 7 episodes of a podcast and then forgetting about it. And there'll be this record in time of people in that period.

Jim Salveson [00:25:18]:

And a lot of the podcasts that exist into the world, They're not filtered in any way, and it's people giving their honest opinions. Some of those opinions are good. Some are valid. Some aren't are less so. And and that'll be it'll be interesting to see how that these podcasts that have just been left in the Internet ether, whether any of them come back or resurface.

James Bishop [00:25:41]:

Completely agree. And I often wonder when you have those people who don't edit their podcast at all, or edit their own podcast and don't have an objective third party, Another reason that I do that is because you've got someone managing your reputation indirectly. They Mhmm. Are looking out for you. Was there an exact moment you knew the podcast was over?

Jim Salveson [00:26:00]:

It was probably on its last legs. It was on dialysis for probably a year previous to it actually Giving up the ghost completely for all the reasons I mentioned. It was the time consumption. It was the the professional conflict. It was the, maybe, lack of progress As well that fed into that in terms of the amount of listeners we got, it kinda plateaued to a certain point. The recognition we got in terms of Award nominations had we hadn't had any of them for a little while, and it felt there was a real struggle to take the Podcast to the next level, to take it to the next step. And I think that's where it kind of went, okay, that's it. Let let's draw a line under this and And see what happened.

Jim Salveson [00:26:42]:

And we've never said we've never said that's it. We've never said it completely gone forever. But, I mean, it's been a long time now since we made that final episode.

James Bishop [00:26:51]:

You do have a final episode though, don't you? If you look, there is kind of like a sign off app.

Jim Salveson [00:26:58]:

Yeah. It was definitely a decision that was made, and it was probably made A couple of months before we actually went, that's the final show. We knew it was coming to an end, and we knew we were gonna stop. We didn't want it just to To kinda fade away and disappear forever. And we had a decent amount of dedicated listeners at this point. I think at one point, we were getting kind of 4000 ish an episode. And I think we've dwindled a little bit, but we're still getting a couple of 1,000 from memory. And we had some real dedicated people who every time we release something, would be Quoting back lines from it or we kinda messaged just going, oh, I love this bit or that bit.

Jim Salveson [00:27:31]:

So, we didn't just wanna kinda stop without any kind of fanfare.

James Bishop [00:27:35]:

What Are some of the worst decisions that you made on that journey of nearly 300 episodes when making the podcast?

Jim Salveson [00:27:41]:

Doing it? I think probably a bit of an error. I don't think we made any horrible decisions because I think We were reflective enough to learn from the things we did, and there are always good things that came out of the bad decisions. Like I said, we Put money into social media marketing, which had absolutely zero impact, but at the same time, learnt that that wasn't something we wanted to pursue again. We spent hours making a show from TalkSport that never got aired, but actually the process of going through creating that show was really valuable. And as you said, the lesson behind commercial Scheduling was probably really valuable there. I think probably the mistakes that I made early on was that lack of trust And that lack of letting go, and the inability to relinquish creative control. I think I wish I'd learnt that 6 years before this point because I think it would have made my life and my stress levels so much better at that point. So if If you wanted to pick up on a a mistake, an error that was made, it was like not listening enough to other people that I should have had supreme trust in.

Jim Salveson [00:28:51]:

That doesn't just go for this podcast. That probably goes further back than that as well. And it's still probably something I'm yeah. Yeah. It's still probably something I'm struggling with to this day is letting people get on with stuff.

James Bishop [00:29:01]:

What are good decisions that you made? And what the ones I'm really interested in are what are the best decisions you made, but, like, much later on that you go, I wish I'd done that so much sooner.

Jim Salveson [00:29:12]:

Yeah. I think caring less a little bit about what was actually happening and what we were actually putting together, Knowing when something is at a point that it doesn't necessarily need to be any better. Because You can go over stuff again and again. And I think for most creative people, that can become a real kind of stumbling block and a real blocker to doing stuff is going, It's not perfect yet. It's not perfect yet. It's not perfect yet. And just carrying on in that cycle of wanting to tweak and improve. And at some point, you just gotta go, No.

Jim Salveson [00:29:45]:

That's fine. How it sounds now is absolutely okay. It's certainly in the later episodes, I think, when we got And and maybe it happened. It might have even happened at a point where we decided we weren't gonna continue anymore. And that kind of like that The the the relaxation you have at that point where you go, actually, I don't care as much anymore, actually is a really good a really valuable thing.

James Bishop [00:30:08]:

I'd love to know, In that vein, what aspect of the podcast do you wish you had put more energy into?

Jim Salveson [00:30:17]:

I think, in reflection, I wish we'd Developed it to a point where it could have been a live show. I think that's something Oh, wow. It would I I think it would have been a really interesting step for us to take. And whether the format would have changed or whether it will be something else, but I think in terms of how it was as a show, it would have done really well in that kind of context. And There weren't a huge amount of people doing kind of live podcasting things over this period. Again, that that's something that's become really popular Recently, maybe. But I think finding a format where it worked in a live environment would have been something I would have loved to have done.

James Bishop [00:30:51]:

And I think we're gonna see a lot more of that in the coming 12 to 24 months, if for no more reason than it's an opportunity for creators to make some money, and actually directly have an in person three d relationship with their audience.

Jim Salveson [00:31:11]:

But, again, I think the thing that really stopped us doing that, and we did talk about it briefly, the idea of maybe going to Edinburgh and doing the Not the fringe, but the kind of the other fringe or whatever it's called. We did talk about maybe how we'd make this work in that environment. And and I think it was It was fear on my part, and it goes back to what I was saying before about labeling something funny or labeling something comedy because it's a real Slammed down to earth when you're standing in front of 10, 15, 20, however many people, and you tell a joke. It happens right. If you're in a pub and you tell a joke to your 5 mates and no one laughs, it's a horrible experience. And when you've been going, this is a funny podcast To do it in front of a room full of people who don't laugh. I'm not sure I could mentally recover from that.

James Bishop [00:31:57]:

I think I'd be fine. I Tell my wife jokes all the time and she never laughs. I'm used to that level of constant rejection. So did you mourn the passing of the podcast or were you kind of relieved to see it die?

Jim Salveson [00:32:10]:

Not immediately afterwards. It was probably a little bit of a relief, Largely due to the kind of time that it was taking to do it. I mean, eve even at the end when we kind of made that workflow simpler, we're probably talking 6 hours a week each Going into this this show that was ridiculous for a 15 minute show when you think about it. So I think immediately afterwards, It was probably like, thank fuck for that, was the overall reaction. Now and I think that This still happens to this day. There's there is an element of me that goes, I do miss it. And I miss it because it's an outlet For those stupid little thoughts that I have in my head when I'm watching football or I'm scrolling through Twitter or I'm reading a Sun article that is about A wag, and they're trying to make it football related, but actually, all they wanna do is show pictures of someone in a bikini. And all all that kinda Stuff buzzes around my head, and I want an outlet for that, and I don't necessarily have that.

Jim Salveson [00:33:07]:

And that's that's the periods I met I miss on the left side. And occasionally, myself and Ant will We'll send each other a link from the website of from a website news story and go, this is so ridiculous. This is the kind of re this is the reason we did On the Left as a podcast is to shed light and take the piss out of this kind of story. And and they're the moments I go, oh, yeah. I do miss it a little bit.

James Bishop [00:33:30]:

From everything you've learned, What piece of advice would you give to a podcaster just starting out?

Jim Salveson [00:33:36]:

Do it. Just do it, I think. Don't let anything hold you back. It might not work, and you might end up talking to James on this podcast in a few months time after 3 episodes are released and you've then given up. But There will be lessons along the way that you learn. And I think also it's important to remember that when you launch a podcast, unless you are Stephen Fry or James Acaster or whoever it happens to be, a big name, you're not gonna have many listeners at the start, and there's no harm To kind of learning on the job to a certain extent. And, also, I'd say if you're making a podcast, and this is just personal preference, Do something other than an interview podcast because there were there were lots of interview podcasts. And some of them add value, But a lot of them are the same thing.

Jim Salveson [00:34:26]:

And I think podcasting is a space where there is Unbridled room for creativity and innovation. And we're just not necessarily seeing it at the moment. And I think there are podcast formats waiting to be discovered that haven't been done yet, and I want people to find them, and I want people to go and do them.

James Bishop [00:34:46]:

I absolutely agree. It's so interesting hanging out in this graveyard on a weekly basis, that the things you expect people to say have not come up as much as you would think, such as I didn't have the time, I didn't get the results, you know, those sort of probably Assumed Clichedancers, and the one thing that comes up over and over again when it comes to advice is don't make Another Interview Show That Doesn't Need TO Know This. That seems to be the thing that so many creators, at the end of their journey realizes that I should have put more effort into the format. If your podcast had a headstone, what would you put on it?

Jim Salveson [00:35:32]:

Thank fuck it's over. Maybe or some something along those lines. I mean, There was a there was definitely a sense of release to its passing. I think that that would probably be the overriding release. And Like I said, we've toyed with the idea of bringing it back and kinda doing it again and maybe looking at slightly tweaks to the format. But ultimately, I know what A grind it was. So there is an element of of relief that it I mean, it it struggled for a while. Put it out of its misery.

Jim Salveson [00:35:59]:

Let's, Let's let it pass away peacefully and kinda get it over with. If I was being more kind of reflective, I'd want the the headstone to say something like, this was on the left side. We tried to do it

James Bishop [00:36:18]:

differently. Love that. We've kind of come to that time in the show where we have to consider whether this should be a show that is resurrected or visit the heavenly afterlife, and I feel, all things considered, like, there probably isn't. Especially as it's now 8 years since you first came up with the format. There probably isn't that, like, you know, real hunger and appetite to bring the show back. And I feel because it has been so long that you probably would need really to do it justice to start again from scratch with an idea.

Jim Salveson [00:37:00]:

I don't think it will ever come back in its its current form. But I do think there's room for what it was. And what it was was Really well crafted short form content. And I think that's something that in the podcasting world hasn't really been unpicked properly yet. And I think there's more audiences Trending towards that stuff as well. So I'd like to think that On the Left Side would, at some point, inspire more of that kind of content in the future.

James Bishop [00:37:25]:

You would need to start afresh and figure out who you are now and what a show looks like in the current climate. Football is very Tribal. There are lots of fan shows, a lot has changed, the space has become much more crowded since you started. So I think the best place for On the Left Side is To Stay in the Graveyard.

Jim Salveson [00:37:47]:

That feels kind of, therapeutic, to be honest with you. That I like Feels like I've finally got closure.

James Bishop [00:37:53]:

I'm glad, and I think that just leads me to say thank you so much for joining me on Podcast Graveyard Today to give a memorial to this long running, hugely successful show, and I appreciate you sharing the highs and the lows, being honest, and just passing on some nuggets of wisdom to future creators out there.

Jim Salveson [00:38:20]:

Cheers, James. Lovely to chat.

James Bishop [00:38:26]:

I think it's probably rest in peace for On The Left Side It had a solid run, but all good things must come to an end. Before we go, let's take a moment to reflect on the lessons from this service. Number 1. Play with format. This is one thing Jim's glad to have done. And it's probably part of the reason behind the show's long running Seth. Being a Mancunian, Jim clearly takes a lot of pride in doing things differently. And I think there's a lot we can take from that pioneering and creative spirit.

James Bishop [00:38:54]:

As Jim said, Podcasting is still a young format. And there's a lot of innovation that can take place. Even if you're not completely tearing up the rule book. It's at least worth remembering that a podcast can be more than just an interview. Number 2. Trust your team. Jim's primary takeaway from his podcasting experience was to learn to not be so precious about his material. And more importantly to trust the creative team he's working with.

James Bishop [00:39:19]:

Choose the right people to work with. And then let them get on with their jobs, so you can get on with yours. Remember, 2 brains work better than 1. And last but not least, Consider Your Own Footprint. As Jim said, he went on to work within football and it dawned on him that he might end up meeting the people that he'd been ridiculing on his podcast. When choosing your show format be careful not to land on something that may end up alienating future colleagues, co workers and ultimately yourself. Or if you are going to take a risk, just be mindful that there may be professional repercussions. Podcasting is about building a personal brand, which is largely about reputation.

James Bishop [00:40:00]:

Make sure your podcast doesn't sully that reputation. As we bring this service to a close, we ask you to please pay your respects by recommending this episode to someone you think will find it valuable and if you or someone you know has a podcast that's been laid to rest and would like to give it a proper send off. We'd love to have you on. Please email us at podcast graveyard at onfineplay.com. At The Last Service, we were haunted by Charlotte Foster. Host of the show Cultural Quarter of an Hour. Charlotte spoke about choosing a reschedule that works for you, having an exit strategy before you get started. And we discuss why a podcast is still one of the best Platforms For Building A Personal Brand.

James Bishop [00:40:45]:

If you haven't already, go and have a listen. A quick thank you to those who have helped make today's service possible. Kasar Faroozia was the producer and editor. Connor Foley was our assistant producer. And Selena Christofides put together the visuals. Special thanks go to Andrew Davey for the inspiration. In parting, let us not dwell on the darkness of this moment. But instead, let us focus on the light that on the left side brought into our lives.

James Bishop [00:41:14]:

Its memory will forever be a guiding star leading us through the night. I'm James Bishop, and this is Podcast Graveyard.